Will Wilkinson just gave a really great research seminar about how to persuade people. Basically, the best way to get libertarian friends is to have libertarian friends. Failing that, you should try and match libertarian ideas to the ideas people already have (Will used the example of persuading someone with a strong egalitarian bent that libertarianism is the ultimate egalitarian philosophy). His basic point was that humans think in terms of teams, and tend not to make rational decisions about what they believe, and so therefore it pays to be a little underhanded when you're trying to persuade people to join your team. He's right. There's objective proof that indicates the success of these methods. That aside, it's fucking creepy. This led to a few thoughts on my part:
Will's comments really could've been generalized to just about any cult or cult-like orginization. He specifically mentioned tactics employed by the Moonies and Mormons. The question is: are we a cult?
I raised that question, and another question I raised was about the inherent value of "being right." It was dismissed out-of-hand, because, yes, obviously being right is good. Which is a fair point, I guess. But the thing is that there's really no way of determining who's "right" in a political debate. It's pretty easy to say that Russian Communism was a shitty way to run a country. But there's very little positive proof that your average political philosophy is "right." It is, more or less, the same as religion in this respect (remember in the South Park movie, when the people who've just gotten to hell are told that Mormonism is the true religion?) (Political philosophies are slightly more testable than religion, in the sense that you could just hand a country over to libertarians and see how it works out. That's never gonna happen, however). Therefore, the possibility exists that we, libertarians, are wrong. There's a chance that, were we to get our way, society would fail on a massive scale, millions would go hungry, people would die, etc. If that's the case, then there's a real chance that we're promoting an evil philosophy, and, as such, are evil people. This bothers me. I still think Libertarianism is the way to go, but I'm not sure I'm going to promote it as heavily as I have been.
The other thing I've been thinking about lately is the rationality question. The inherent rationality of the "average" person is a necessary condition for libertarianism to be successful (and, as such, even for it to be a good idea). The problem is, though, that I doubt that people (or, I suppose, The People) are sufficiently rational. Indeed, Will's whole talk was about how people aren't rational. (To be fair, the fact that people aren't rational about situation x does not necessarily mean that they're not "rational enough" for libertarianism.)
The real problem, however, is that, starting from the opposite assumption--that people can't really be counted on to make good decisions in aggregate--you end up in a kind of self-contradictory political morass. Democracy is right out, because if people aren't rational, a)they're not going to choose politicians wisely, and b)it would be ludicrous to assume off-hand that politicians are going to be rational, drawn as they are from the irrational populace. Practically every other political system fails also, largely as a consequence of objection b, above. How can you trust a king? A council? The only apparent way out of this is to remove the irrational component entirely by appealing to a Higher Authority (in the Hebrew National kinda way). But then you're right back where you started, at religion, which is the least empirical and most irrational system ever (indeed, one of the reasons I tend to like religion is because of its inherently irrational component.)
I guess the only guaranteeably good political system is one actively monitored by a super-human (and not in the Marvel sense) entity whose existence, rationality, AND benevolent intent toward humanity (or, if you were feeling generous, the planet) could be empirically proven. This, however, strikes me as a series of very difficult-to-meet conditions.
This realization, however, really only bumps us up to another level of difficulties. If what I'm saying is right (and I think it is, but it very well could be wrong), then the only rational political belief system would, in fact, be political nihilism. The problem with political nihilism is that it's hugely impractical, and also not very cool. People who claim to be without political beliefs really bother me, and I'm just not sure if I'm ready to take that leap yet.
"As long as I know right from wrong
I'll be OK, I'll sing my songs..."
-sam

8 Comments:
Nice post sam, I like the topics you brought up. The point about questioning the possibility of any ideal political organization is very interesting. I agree with your conclusions but would reframe the issue as this: communism and libertarianism both cater towards absolutes (sharing and rationality.. maybe?) which, most likely, dooms them to fail. I think any resonable solution must contain compromise, eg. everything in moderation. American democracy is a good example: built through trial and error by mish-mash of conservatives and liberals. I feel that if either side had complete control the result would be worse in both cases than their admitadly messy combination.
As you know I'm a strong supporter of libertarianism (civil at least), but there are many good points about libertarianism being a cult of rationality made in this post:
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/7/28/035/80455
-Seth
Heres a reframe of politics as evolutionary: Just as no single man could design something as elegant yet mind numbingly complex as a living organism (pick any), could any single man (or group) design from scratch a political system that could just be put in place and work?
-Seth
I think one of the nice things about a system of checks and balances is, at least sometimes, a rational solution can come out of the consensus of different irrational people, kinda a the-whole-is-greater-than-the-sum-of-its-parts deal. At least I hope so.
See, the thing is either that people are inherently rational, in which case libertarianism seems (at least to me) the best, if not the only, way to go; or people are inherently irrational, in which case no human government can really work.
I'm really glad you guys read it, though.
-sam
It surprises me, Sambo, that you could have this attitude about an answer to a question you are not sure of!
Evolution-can't be proven, might be your "best" choice, even-but you won't admit, as you have in this case, that you could be wrong.
The post was right on! You raised great points!
"Evolution-can't be proven, might be your "best" choice, even-but you won't admit, as you have in this case, that you could be wrong."
Look, man, this whole "I hate science" thing is cute and everything, but seriously, GET A GRIP. The whole point of my post was that, UNLIKE SCIENCE, it is almost impossible to empirically test governmental theories, because of the humans involved. Humans are subjective, science is not. Like I said on your blog, the possibility exists that evolution as currently understood is drastically incorrect. The chance of that, the chance that not only the particulars but also the very framework and principles of evolution are incorrect, is stunningly small. We can test evolution. We can use SCIENCE to conduct rational experiments that prove or disprove given facts to a sufficient degree.
One of your continuing critiques of evolution is that it can't be proven. Think of it this way: jurors are required in civil cases to decide whether someone is or is not guilty; that is to say, whether they did or did not commit a given crime. There is a given set of standards for this process: only certain kinds of evidence are admissable, only certain points can be raised in court, a certain threshold of belief must be met, etc. There are times when this system gets things wrong by convicting the innocent or freeing the guilty. But in many of these situations, advances in technology can ameliorate many of those false verdicts. Would you discard the American justice system?
-sam
"because of the humans involved"
Thanks, Sam-you bolster my position!
If there was some sort of award for obnoxious single-minded misinterpretation of other people's remarks, it would so be yours.
My point was that it is possible to test scientific theories empirically. Evolution happened or it didn't. Physics works or it doesn't. A or not-A. Easy peasy. It is not possible to test political situations empirically (at least not to a degree that makes me comfortable). How do you "test" the efficacy of a government? Figure out the average happiness of the population? GDP? Unemployment? Ask people how good a job they think the gov't is doing? Because stuff like governments are measured on inherently subjective levels, UNLIKE SCIENCE, you can't measure them objectively. That, and not some point about how all human-derived knowledge is invalid (as you seem to believe), was my point.
-sam
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